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pyc
What the fuck is happening with people? Why the new minimal releases are definitely most popular here and not just here? Am I missing something? Is my 20-year listening to electronic music not enough to understand what's going on and to catch the "vibe". Starting to think I'm some kind of conservative old fart suitable for a definitive music pension.

But no, here's my opinion why this is happening. Much the same like dark-psy style, which I consider to be child of the ones who wanted to make good goa trance, but failed, I consider new minimal is made by the ones who are untalented but do want to make techno. As for the consumers, I see them rather as a mass which can't really comprehend any complication in music expression, and they are therefore touched by the much simpler forms.

One guy which is praised a lot, and is among ones the most responsible for all of this is Richie Hawtin. His kind of new minimal is probably most acceptable to me, but behind him, he left the whole mass of unsuccessfull clones.

For me, all that crap is definitely wrong direction of techno. I would me much happier to see some techno-trance fusion gets massive like this is.

I think having understanding for expressions you don't like just because someone likes them is not good reason. Those kind of expressions should be simply marked as bad. And finally, how much anyone's opinion about music can really be objective? Is there any objectiveness at all when we talk about art. I would say there is objectiveness, and I say if you don't think your subjective point of view is a kind of objective or close to objective, then why the hell you're listening to music?

Excuse me people, but this was just the great egoism of the true admirer of electronic music. wink.gif Hopefully I will make some minimal people to revise their thoughts about it all, and go for some more skillful and expression richer genres. There are plenty to choose from, even forgotten 2 Unlimited is better. wink.gif That's all...
Kolor
Ha ... nice rant grandpa tongue.gif

For most it's all about friends, drink, drugs, good times, cool music, sexy new people, loosing inhibitions, escapism, hedonism, clubs in other words. The UK is a club nation, to a greater extent than ever before.
Countless thousands of young fucked up people leave behind the drab mundanity of 9 to 5 life to escape, just for a night or two, to a shimmering, glittering, sparkling world of colour, glamour and style. The staid inescapable realities of the working week are utterly forgotten, as is all but the next beat, the next cord, the next breakdown. Hands reach for the ceiling, smiles split surprised faces. Spanking new trainers or little strappy heels are pounding on the sticky floor. Cheers greet favorite records, tight mixes and friendly faces. All eyes are on the nodding head floating behind the decks in anticipation of next slice of aural pleasure. This is Saturday night - for a while at least, it's all good.
pyc
Yeah right, the mass is just too drunk and/or drugged to even think about music. There are just some funny sounds - good enough. Good analytics. Great reply. smile.gif
Peeth
I wrote at first a long answer, but I will react shortly at last:

question:
"New" minimal sound, why is it so popular?

answer:
I think it has something to do with the mood of artists, and people around music production, listeners, and maybe the whole world.
It has something to do with the young generation, who are usually creating the biggest part of the listeners, so lets say from 13-14 till som 22-23 maybe...
only my opinion smile.gif

actually i totally agree with Kolor, and his thoughts are always told the best way wink.gif
freak
yeah kolor always hits the nail. smile.gif

well defineatly music is a topic you just can't be objective cos it's a matter of personal taste and preferences. also music always reflect the current time. just recently i saw "american hardcore", a movie about the usa punk/hardcore scene where some guys said "94 it was over. it had no special reason. it was just over because it was time to finish it." maybe the same thing happens with techno, and it's just the time the "classic" techno is over and mutates into an other style like minimal and all the hybrids like tech trance and such.

as for me - i'm not a huge fan of "classic" minimal bleep bleep techno, but if i go through 100 minimal releases i will find 5 tracks that i really like and i'm sure not the guy who refuse it just because it's minimal. it's all about selection. sure - minimal is currently the hype and there are a lot of ppl listening to everything that's called minimal just because of that but what to do? every time has his hypes and if you ask me it's nothing bad on that. music has to go forward and not to stand still on one point without moving, that's boring. so to shake the head and to moan about "where are the good old techno times" is just some sort of techno-midlife-crisis and is nothing different from the 60 year old guy whining that there is no real music after the roling stones.

also regarding the "quality"... we live in digital times where everyone can make tracks on his PC. that's good, but leads to a huge output of crap aswell. and it's also understandable that many artists jump on the minimal train because it sells. i'm sure currently the weakest minimal release sells better than a good classic techno release. so again - it's all about selection of stuff you like from the mass of new releases.
PepperQ
QUOTE (freak @ 26. Jun 2008, 16:52) *
music has to go forward and not to stand still on one point without moving, that's boring. so to shake the head and to moan about "where are the good old techno times" is just some sort of techno-midlife-crisis and is nothing different from the 60 year old guy whining that there is no real music after the roling stones.


I agree whith Freak. We all move on. Music asswell. So I think its natural that ppl listen diffrent kinde of misic.

Kolor is write too...

Too much haos in the world. Too much everything.

So I say - enjoy music now. And will see what happens in future!

It wont change in a day.

Pease smile.gif
Peeth
QUOTE (freak @ 26. Jun 2008, 15:52) *
...and if you ask me it's nothing bad on that. music has to go forward and not to stand still on one point without moving, that's boring...


i dont think techno was standing on one place. I am esp. a bit amazed how artist changed not only in elements of the tunes, but in speed as well. really, jumping from 135 - 140 to 125 - 130 is a big jump, esp. adding a bit more spice by changing the elements playing, less melody, less intruments, .. minimalized, and some electro-lized.

Its like I do this, couse its cool. Ahh, now is cool sth different, so I leave what I did so far, and now the new one is cool. I dont taste music this way. Believe me or not, everytime I play different style, techno of the speed I really like 132-3 - 142-3 comes to my mind.
I think thats because I really like it.

I think they do so, couse of the money. I think new generation just wants sth, what will be told in the future, that it was their, and no one else could tell them "hey, I listen to the same style for ages, and you come and think you are cool couse you listen for a short time?"

I think its more about that. Youngsters like to have their own styles, and not copied ones.
But, copied?! How can be something copied, if its always changing? a bit faster a bit slower, I say ok, but slower and less elements, so totally jumping into another style is kinda amazing for me. I mean, what was the music for those producers so far? Was it just a daily routine that they could leave from one day to another?

Well, interesting...
most of them lost their respect in me...
now i feel a bit sad, couse all is minimalized, changing to styles that I can hardly find myself in.
... prolly becoming:

QUOTE (pyc @ 26. Jun 2008, 13:30) *
conservative old fart


QUOTE (freak @ 26. Jun 2008, 15:52) *
also regarding the "quality"... we live in digital times where everyone can make tracks on his PC. that's good, but leads to a huge output of crap aswell. and it's also understandable that many artists jump on the minimal train because it sells. i'm sure currently the weakest minimal release sells better than a good classic techno release. so again - it's all about selection of stuff you like from the mass of new releases.


I totally agree with freak!
pyc
Don't get me wrong, I'm not nostalgic about the good old techno times (yeah, those were the days wink.gif, I just think the wrong style has taken the position of the most popular techno mutant. Sure there are other mutants, I just don't know how they aren't noticed a bit more. Simply the "mainstream" techno has gone into some strange direction.
Peeth
QUOTE (pyc @ 26. Jun 2008, 16:38) *
Don't get me wrong, I'm not nostalgic about the good old techno times (yeah, those were the days wink.gif, I just think the wrong style has taken the position of the most popular techno mutant. Sure there are other mutants, I just don't know how they aren't noticed a bit more. Simply the "mainstream" techno has gone into some strange direction.


well if we consider number of listeners at torrentech, and number of posts made in torrentech...
i get:
1.) techno, esp. minimal
2.) house, esp. progressive, electro, and maybe a bit deep house
3.) drum and bass prolly

I say honestly I wanted to see, how people join and leave to listen the radio when different styles were played.

It could be a not so good minimal set vs. a really good classical techno set, and you just dont get the number of listeners tongue.gif
or weak minimal set vs. latino, vocal house. same result.

i see now minimal, electro house, and progressive house as styles that are quite popular smile.gif
Kolor
Put simply minimal is a reaction genre caused by the over saturation of elements in musical styles such as electro house(not pointing any fingers here).
One man, 2ยข.


--Edit

Oh and the sorry state of today's ecstasy and increasing use of ketamine in clubs probably helped!
Infovision
I'll try and make some coherent points, but first I must state my background.

Background : I have no background in electronic music to compare to Pyc and my real interest started probably 10 years ago with Kraftwerk. I became slightly interested in trance & techno of the the 1995-2000 period but became extremely disinterested in it. I was briefly listening to Daft Punk from 2001-2002, but it wasn't until near the end of 2002 I picked up the foundation of my interest in IDM / Downtempo / Ambient : Telefon Tel Aviv - Fahrenheit Fair Enough. I've generally stuck to these styles since with brief excursions into House lately. My reason for stating this is to show I have no history in club-influenced or popular electronic music.

At about the time I was becoming interested in IDM I also started listening to Plastikman (Musik / Closer) under the suggestion of a friend. This is where my minimal roots lie I suppose. I now find myself listening to what might be considered minimal in the guise of Jan Jelinek, Katzo, Murmur ect... but these guys are all IDM / Downtempo / Ambient influenced minimal. This leads to my first point.

1.) People stick with what they know.

I don't know all the details of the origin of minimal, but it's my guess that people who listen to minimal either started out listening to electronic with minimal or were led to it by a similar or cross-over genre.

2.) People can dance to it

It seems to me that it's the "new" club music in a sense. Electronic music played in clubs is the closest thing the genre has to pop music and it's not surprise that with a style related to pop, albeit not stylistically but in purpose and approach, it is a favorite or a fad.

3.) It's the next step

People like new things. Blame it on capitalism or human nature but man is always trying to push forward and distance himself from the past. Of course re-creating the past in the form of nostalgia is ok because this is not anti-progressive living but a way of maintaining continuity in our lives.

4.) Everyone can relate

Minimal, in a way, is the combination of Trance, House & Techno. The evidence is apparent in the inability of everyone to agree where it should be placed on the forum. This means everyone probably has some artist working in minimal that they like.


Minimal is likely a bloated genre, but so is future-jazz, IDM, indie-rock, post-rock ect... There are many artists just caching into the honey pot or else just emulating their heroes without progressing, but this is the history of music. I really don't see anything inherently bad with minimal or at least nothing as bad as top-40 radio artists but if you are tired of the current trends then either wait them out or seek your kicks elsewhere. Minimal is just another style. Another reaction in the long course of the progression of the art.

Thesis -> Antithesis -> Synthesis (new thesis) -> Antithesis ect...
project
I think it isn't good to stick to one genre. I try to listen to everything worth listenig, from jazz to drum&base.
I like minimal. Not all minimal, it is true that to many people with not to much talent are in it, but there are tunes from some artists (like booka shade, or minilogue) that make music I like a lot.
It is simple music, there is not happening much at once on a track, but melodies and harmonies are more sophisticated than in most techno I've heard. (I have not heard much, techno here didn't get far passed tribal techno and hard techno, ben sims, marco carola, cristian varela...).
I also agree with kolor, that a music style is 'in' doesn't necessary mean that people actually listen to it. smile.gif Plus, when you are in a minimal party, you can talk to each other no matter how loud the music is. laugh.gif
Peeth
QUOTE (project2503 @ 26. Jun 2008, 17:47) *
Plus, when you are in a minimal party, you can talk to each other no matter how loud the music is. laugh.gif


lmao biggrin.gif
good comment! smile.gif
Glitchwerks
I've been listening to electronic music for a while, over 20 years, that much I know. I'm not too big on minimal to be honest. I do like the whole Basic Channel and dub techno stuff, mind you, it's where my head has always been at. The stuff that Richie and Dubfire and whoever is trendy at the moment is the stuff I can't stand at all. I used to love M_nus, I don't even bother downloading the MP3's anymore, certainly not buying the wax or plastic.

Stuff I hate the most is electro house. It's like they took old Juan Atkins and Underground Resistance records and decided how to burn off all the funk and leave nothing but an abrasive electronic record that has more in common with old EBM (Front 242, Nitzer Ebb, etc.) If you play a Justice record around me I will slap you. Hard. I was real upset to hear recent Ninja Tune sounding like all this garbage. No. Bad Ninja! No cookie for you!

Trance honestly mystifies me. The underground scene is strong, but that's not what's popular. It's the Tiesto crap (I know we all hate him.) I've gotten into some psychill (Ultimae, but that's all I've liked) but I see records all the time that I have absolutely no clue about, and not enough time or bandwidth to spare downloading something crappy. I would like to hear some more trance, but I'm wary of asking cos of looking like a fool. Darkpsy, psythis, psythat, no clue what any of it is.

Drum n bass is almost silly now. You've got the darkstep which is just annoying, the liquid stuff which isn't even a patch on old GLR atmospherics, and the clown step rubbish.

It's gotten so that quantity has pushed quality off the ledge. Any scene you get into is flooded with releases, net labels, and everyone seems fine with it. I specialized in nothing but dub techno for the last 2-3 years because frankly it's the only stuff I didn't have to worry about rubbish popping up, but even that's changing cos the style is getting quite popular now.

Eh, cranky old man I suppose, but that's how it is. I'm switching to lossless audio now and going back to listen to classic 90's stuff, really is a difference in the music then and now. "Fun" is one big factor.
Kolor
QUOTE (Glitchwerks @ 26. Jun 2008, 18:39) *
I was real upset to hear recent Ninja Tune sounding like all this garbage. No. Bad Ninja! No cookie for you!

Cookie Theft from Ninja == Not Cool
Infovision
I want to know what you guys think of Tatsu. Is this minimal? Is it even close? Check out this net.label release here :
http://www.archive.org/details/mtk152

There is a streaming player on the page or you can download the whole thing for free in a .zip file.
I absolutely love "sky and sea / daytime dream", track 2. Maybe its the cowbell and rim shot samples that do it for me or maybe its the pads that remind me of the cheesy mid-late 90s japanese style.

Check him out. In my opinion he gives net.labels a good name.
Soulsonant
QUOTE (Glitchwerks @ 26. Jun 2008, 13:39) *
It's gotten so that quantity has pushed quality off the ledge. Any scene you get into is flooded with releases, net labels, and everyone seems fine with it.


I totally agree with you. Half of the problem with electronic music today is that anyone can make a release. When I first came into EDM in 2002, everything was still pretty fresh, the super dj's were out in full force, but by 2006, it just seems like I can't even come CLOSE to keeping up with every release on Beatport, etc.

And you're right, quality has fallen off the map. I download a number of torrents from here, and I would say out of 20 torrents, I can find 1 to 3 tracks that I honestly love. It's that way on BP, or any other site, and it's sad. I dont' know if EDM is just the new 'thing' or if it's going to die off again, but I'd love to come to a day where I don't have to search through 50 or 60 releases just to find 1 or 2 decent tracks. (Progressive House as a genre has really gotten bad in this regard. PH is my genre btw tongue.gif)

Just my thoughts.
alaxdaftpunk91
QUOTE (Soulsonant @ 27. Jun 2008, 08:42) *
QUOTE (Glitchwerks @ 26. Jun 2008, 13:39) *
It's gotten so that quantity has pushed quality off the ledge. Any scene you get into is flooded with releases, net labels, and everyone seems fine with it.


I totally agree with you. Half of the problem with electronic music today is that anyone can make a release. When I first came into EDM in 2002, everything was still pretty fresh, the super dj's were out in full force, but by 2006, it just seems like I can't even come CLOSE to keeping up with every release on Beatport, etc.

And you're right, quality has fallen off the map. I download a number of torrents from here, and I would say out of 20 torrents, I can find 1 to 3 tracks that I honestly love. It's that way on BP, or any other site, and it's sad. I dont' know if EDM is just the new 'thing' or if it's going to die off again, but I'd love to come to a day where I don't have to search through 50 or 60 releases just to find 1 or 2 decent tracks. (Progressive House as a genre has really gotten bad in this regard. PH is my genre btw tongue.gif)

Just my thoughts.


I DONT LIKE IT TOO...IT DOESNT GIVE ME ANY EMOTION LIKE ELECTRONIC MUSIC. AND I DONT KNOW WHY ITS POPULAR...
pyc
QUOTE (Infovision @ 27. Jun 2008, 08:09) *
I want to know what you guys think of Tatsu. Is this minimal? Is it even close?


Definitely it's not minimal, not even close, and btw track you mentioned is really nice, will go download the whole release now. Minimal's defined by simple sounds, simple rhythm, no melody or melody in traces wink.gif. What is "new" minimal for me is for example Ellen Alien - Sool. In my opinion - very weak release (i would give rating of 2), but it has 45 seeders??? smile.gif) ... That's the hype.
Glitchwerks
Glad to see I'm not the only one who disliked Sool. I liked her previous albums a lot too.
UNL1M1T3D
QUOTE (freak @ 26. Jun 2008, 09:52) *
yeah kolor always hits the nail. smile.gif

well defineatly music is a topic you just can't be objective cos it's a matter of personal taste and preferences. also music always reflect the current time. just recently i saw "american hardcore", a movie about the usa punk/hardcore scene where some guys said "94 it was over. it had no special reason. it was just over because it was time to finish it." maybe the same thing happens with techno, and it's just the time the "classic" techno is over and mutates into an other style like minimal and all the hybrids like tech trance and such.

as for me - i'm not a huge fan of "classic" minimal bleep bleep techno, but if i go through 100 minimal releases i will find 5 tracks that i really like and i'm sure not the guy who refuse it just because it's minimal. it's all about selection. sure - minimal is currently the hype and there are a lot of ppl listening to everything that's called minimal just because of that but what to do? every time has his hypes and if you ask me it's nothing bad on that. music has to go forward and not to stand still on one point without moving, that's boring. so to shake the head and to moan about "where are the good old techno times" is just some sort of techno-midlife-crisis and is nothing different from the 60 year old guy whining that there is no real music after the roling stones.

also regarding the "quality"... we live in digital times where everyone can make tracks on his PC. that's good, but leads to a huge output of crap aswell. and it's also understandable that many artists jump on the minimal train because it sells. i'm sure currently the weakest minimal release sells better than a good classic techno release. so again - it's all about selection of stuff you like from the mass of new releases.


I agree with Freak, I like minimal, but not everything. It's funny cause I am very extreme, either I will really dig on a song or absolutely hate it.

Let me give you my perspective since I am still a bit of a noob when it comes to electronic music. I was first introduced to electronic music oddly enough through my dad who had some old Kraftwerk albums (Autobahn and Computer World). I didn't listen to much techno until I was late into high school and it was mostly trance and ambient stuff I would get through friends. A little over a year ago I started my current job and my boss and I hit it off after I told him I like techno. He used to be an event planner planning shows scheduling DJs so he exposed me to a lot of great artists, especially a lot of great Detroit artists. It's my understanding that Kraftwerk heavily influenced Detroit style techno, and Detroit Techno heavily influenced Minimal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_techno).

Maybe it's where I grew up and what I got exposed to, but some of it's not bad. I don't have 20+ years of experience with electronic music, but frankly I don't need it to tell me what my ears like and what they don't. I like it's simplicity. If done well it can be kind of relaxing and almost hypnotic. I think it's important that we all realize that we aren't all going to like the same stuff and just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's terrible or bad, it just means that you don't like it. By acting like that you come off as an elitist. And while it's stupid to like something just because of the hype remember it's just as stupid to hate something because of the hype.
Kolor
Websters' defines music as:
1) The science and the art of tones, or musical sounds, i. e., sounds of higher or lower pitch, begotten of uniform and synchronous vibrations, as of a string at various degrees of tension; the science of harmonical tones which treats of the principles of harmony, or the properties, dependences, and relations of tones to each other; the art of combining tones in a manner to please the ear.
Note: Not all sounds are tones. Sounds may be unmusical and yet please the ear. Music deals with tones, and with no other sounds.

2) (a) Melody; a rhythmical and otherwise agreeable succession of tones.


I think the later part sums it up really. "Otherwise agreeable" is a subjective term, so, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, music is in the ear of the listener.
GlobeAddict
For me it's simple. I don't care from which style the track comes.
If I like (sounds good in my ears) it, I buy it or I download it or I leech biggrin.gif .

PS: Sorry for my english blush.gif
noesis0011
simple rythms for the masses...

i agree with pyc. most of the minimal i have heard is rather boring.

i really like that richie hawtin, acid-minimal (plastikman - sheet one, for example) that kind of vicious repetition is hypnotic and really digs deep into my head. the villalobos shit i've heard is hot too.

just be glad your not in the states hearing mainstream hip-hop pollute live mixes every place you go. sick.gif fucking garbage.


http://www.torrentech.org/index.php?showto...p;hl=plastikman
http://www.torrentech.org/index.php?showto...p;hl=plastikman
UNL1M1T3D
QUOTE (Kolor @ 01. Jul 2008, 06:09) *
Websters' defines music as:
1) The science and the art of tones, or musical sounds, i. e., sounds of higher or lower pitch, begotten of uniform and synchronous vibrations, as of a string at various degrees of tension; the science of harmonical tones which treats of the principles of harmony, or the properties, dependences, and relations of tones to each other; the art of combining tones in a manner to please the ear.
Note: Not all sounds are tones. Sounds may be unmusical and yet please the ear. Music deals with tones, and with no other sounds.

2) (a) Melody; a rhythmical and otherwise agreeable succession of tones.


I think the later part sums it up really. "Otherwise agreeable" is a subjective term, so, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, music is in the ear of the listener.


Well put. thumbsup.gif
avatar_karma
what do u guys think of minilogue - animals?
bigtotoro
Lezz is More yes.gif Minimal sound became so fresh as a backlash against overblown obvious tunes with huge drum roll breakdowns as used in hard dance and trance for so many years. Minimal is more sophistocated and groovy and the space in the mix creates more prominent and distinctive sounds and atmosphere. It uses some very original sounds and is great fro building up tension and layering loops on loops. It builds throughout the night taking you on a journey rather than just boshing on monster tune after another. Its moody and creates a good vibe. Also alot of the programming in minimal gives the impression of speed as if the tracks driving froward even though its at a grooving pace. The market has become totally saturated and I can see elements of 'who can make the biggest breakdown' creeping in which is really the antithesis of minimal in a way. There's still alot fo great stuff knocking around. There's alot of techno and tech house being influenced by minimal, particularly in the pecussion IMO. There's an interesting fusion of house, techno and minimal going on at the moment
vapurtrale
this topics "20 year" "the true admirer of electronic music" champion has mentioned some interesting things and in the appeal of not getting caught up in a battle for the souls of electronic genre fans as a whole and as a also long time and person who normally loves extremely complex music i must say without realizing it was as big as its gotten . . i like the minimal movement.

the close minded views of the topics founder surprises me in a genre where change, new direction and the ability to burn down the walls that confine many other types of music are its strongest attributes. his anger towards what other people choose to like is also disturbing. in this musical arena more then most, expression is near limitless with the soundscapes and new terrain we can create and mold to fit the exact thing on our hearts and minds at any time. and as a listener in a time when people are tired of over complication and over consumption and the hustle and bustle of our modern world i think many people relate to the idea and feeling of tranquility and simplicity in this type of music. the "purists" scream foul, but in its purest form music can exist simply and beautifully in an open, raw and simple style we are seeing things move towards now with the indie / minimal explosion.

no body complains when artists do acoustic sets. what are these? nothing any more different then the effortless deconstruction of a genre and many sub genres that have gotten so complicated that many times it doesn't fit the relaxing, down to earth feeling we all long for in music. the feeling that wow, this person knows exactly and has felt completely what i am feeling right now.

so let me be minimal in closing. let me strip away the over complication and static from this response. in a musical universe that thrives on innovation and change, in a place where people are usually the most accepting. why are you complaining, yelling and persecuting people for a style that speaks to them and fills whatever need they are feeling at the moment? you could do what we all do to types we aren't necessarily into . . listen to something else . . wallbash.gif
thinker
I hate the fact minimal is a hype now... It devaules it really as tons of new 'minimal' are produced and really most of it is crappy... it wasn't like that a couple years ago...
of course thanks to this expansion there are also some new artist that do it good... all in all I'm just waiting for something else to be in the spotlight so I can go back to enjoying my minimal minimal without anyone judging me upfront... not that it bothers me, but it's nicer without it : )

for instance, hearing Audion live blew me away, but hearing dubfire bored me half to death... I don't know... it all really depends... heheh

peace
Play
I think people like minimal because they like the sound. Personally, I remember hearing the first minimal (I called it micro-house at the time) track that I heard. I was blown away by the classiness of the sound. Like something you can chill to or something you can dance to.

Obviously there is a lot of crap out there and I agree it can get overplayed and overproduced. But I still think it's pretty dope.
Uzique
Some of the new directions in minimal are exciting and progressive (e.g. Richie Hawtin is unbelievable, hype-justified)- but as ever, when there's a popular new sound, a lot of bedroom producers put out utter dross in the same 'fashionable' style. This happened with IDM in the 90's, it's now happening with minimal/microhouse and dubstep. I wouldn't paint the entire genre with the 'boo!' brush, but because it's the big sound right now out in clubland, there are a lot of people putting out sub-par releases.

I personally can't defend the 'less is more' philosophy of minimal to people that just don't 'get' it. Different people take away different things and experiences from the music they listen to; some can just get lost in the subliminal tones of a minimal track, others find that minimal is truly a subconcious experience when on drugs or tripping; others again will find the dubbier forms of techno to be far more hard hitting than any snare rush or euphoric synth tones. Just as a lot of people dislike the 'cheesy' electro-dancefloor hits, a lot of people naturally dislike the empty cold soundscapes of minimal.

My experience with minimal was completely revised and my love for it was truly born when I went to Ibiza this year. The big sound in 'progressive' places such as Sven Vath's Cocoon Club (with frequent visits from Hawtin and Villalobos) at Amnesia, a pretty tidy superclub, completely blew my mind and opened my perceptions to minimal. Minimal doesn't come across very well on modest bedroom/PC speaker set-ups... on huge sound systems though with enough bass to rupture your lower intestine, every subversive decibel and little bass wobble comes across with so much more power. The 'less is more' approach really makes sense when the minimal beats are vibrating through your body and into your eardrums at 10 billion decibles.

Trust me I share your dissatisfaction with a lot of 'modern' electronic music-- my heart and passion still lies in the IDM phase of electronic progression. But this genre definitely has its merits... you just have to use the typical filters to separate out all of the poor releases and amateur artists. It's an acquired taste also, one that grows with time as you become more and more immersed in the sounds. Once you 'train' your ears to appreciate the minimalism of Richie Hawtin and the other popular proponents, then you quickly learn to appreciate a lot of other stuff. Ellen Allien's 'Sool' for example is a bit of a diversion from her usual electro / microhouse goodness- but after a few listens through a few tracks did stand out to me as being actually pretty decent.

My $0.02.
Qrszx
Maybe this generation of producers had parents that were in love with Steve Reich? I think someone said already that it was a reactionary form, which I can definitely agree with. I mean it pervades all dance music from dubstep to people like Konono No. 1 right now.

There's definitely something to be said for endless repetition - especially when you consider tribal African music. To perform it or dance to it, even sober, is a mystical experience. It makes the little events in a track seem huger by comparison.

The internet has played a large part as well in desensitising people to music from around the world. Minimal shares a lot in common with African percussive music and the German Motorik style as well as Musique Concrete and sound work. I think some people are missing the point.

Coherent argument? No. no.gif
UNL1M1T3D
QUOTE (vapurtrale @ 05. Aug 2008, 18:45) *
this topics "20 year" "the true admirer of electronic music" champion has mentioned some interesting things and in the appeal of not getting caught up in a battle for the souls of electronic genre fans as a whole and as a also long time and person who normally loves extremely complex music i must say without realizing it was as big as its gotten . . i like the minimal movement.

the close minded views of the topics founder surprises me in a genre where change, new direction and the ability to burn down the walls that confine many other types of music are its strongest attributes. his anger towards what other people choose to like is also disturbing. in this musical arena more then most, expression is near limitless with the soundscapes and new terrain we can create and mold to fit the exact thing on our hearts and minds at any time. and as a listener in a time when people are tired of over complication and over consumption and the hustle and bustle of our modern world i think many people relate to the idea and feeling of tranquility and simplicity in this type of music. the "purists" scream foul, but in its purest form music can exist simply and beautifully in an open, raw and simple style we are seeing things move towards now with the indie / minimal explosion.

no body complains when artists do acoustic sets. what are these? nothing any more different then the effortless deconstruction of a genre and many sub genres that have gotten so complicated that many times it doesn't fit the relaxing, down to earth feeling we all long for in music. the feeling that wow, this person knows exactly and has felt completely what i am feeling right now.

so let me be minimal in closing. let me strip away the over complication and static from this response. in a musical universe that thrives on innovation and change, in a place where people are usually the most accepting. why are you complaining, yelling and persecuting people for a style that speaks to them and fills whatever need they are feeling at the moment? you could do what we all do to types we aren't necessarily into . . listen to something else . . wallbash.gif


The topics founder is the owner of the site.
djviz
i would elaborate but my eyes are a bit strained form looking at a screen - so ill keep it brief and snappy - to me its quite simple:

1) minimal is the style which lacks the most soul in its vibe - 'soulless' in thats its plain thump thump robotic and induces a mood which is easily dug when on drugs as kolor puts very clearly and mostly for those who dont want to dig trance or cheesy Ministry of sound type UK house - other styles to be honest require a bit more of an acquired taste, i.e. garage/deep house, dnb, detroit/tech house.. which the masses just dont get or have - so a soulless thumping beat that raises your hair on ends when pilling your tits off is always by far the most easily driving and appealing type of techno/house - and no doubt if you used to praised minimal back then you still will today - as i have some friends who are still fascinated with the style and i just dont really get it although i too used to listen to it and had christian vogel CD's and other tresor material - only now it bores me to the core, and not them, but they never really dug anything else in the same way - they never liked anything to soul'y - thus lack of soul suits them best -

2) the population of electronic club music lovers has seriously increased proportionally since its early days, the proportion of people who dig each style has increased proportionally / this is reflected by how many more people in countries world wide go clubbing to hear this music, in countries where during the 90's it wasnt as big as it was in europe/US - i.e. other continents like here in south america and asia it seems like the only style people dig in clubs - and its slightly got to do with the domino effect of friends of friends saying "this is soo rad man, its the best music around !! bla bla !!..." and well, as their mates havent heard anything and wouldnt know how to boogie to anything else, cause they dont know what funk is, they just go, "yeah man, yeah its well good !! bla bla !!" - its just far more easily accessible (i say it again) it requires no effort, its a rhythm stripped to its bare bones (ok slight exagerration) but moreso than other styles which also emanate a different mood which many people wont grasp - i realise there are dnb nights here in limited venues, but they are 'very limited' and only those in the know who really dig it for what it is will go - the real music lovers - and im not saying that in the minimal scene there are no music lovers, of course there are - but for every 1 real minimal lover out there, there are 4 others who just tagged along cause they dont know best - and im adamant on that point

3) minimal has always been hyped imo, and today hype seems to be the name of the game tongue.gif ok, that was a bullshit 3rd point, just needed a 3rd one tongue.gif but there is some truth in it ... just an ickle bit

bah, call it what you want, i call minimal - superficial dribble tongue.gif
UNL1M1T3D
QUOTE (djviz @ 29. Aug 2008, 15:06) *
so a soulless thumping beat that raises your hair on ends when pilling your tits off...



I laughed out loud when I read that laugh.gif.
gr00v3
I've been a long, long, long time listener of a lot of the older electronic stuff (Eno, Schulze, Jarre, Vangelis, Cluster, etc), but it wasn't until someone turned me on to Boards of Canada that I started to spread out and look for other stuff.

Since then I've discovered that "new" minimal sound across a wide spectrum. I personally find it gorgeous listening--mesmerizing--but maybe it's all in what you're listening to. I guess I'm not talking about minimal techno or IDM, but the ambient and pseudo-ambient stuff.

These are some of my evergreen artists:
Arovane
Loscil
Murcof
Marsen Jules/Krill Minima
Bola
Autechre
Alva Noto
Apparat
Tim Hecker
Christ.
Casino Versus Japan
Fennesz
Helios
Kiln
Monolake
Mosaik/Rymdlego
Parov Stelar
Robert Henke
William Basinski
Susumu Yokota
Thomas Fehlmann
Klimek
Ulrich Schnauss
Vladislav Delay
Xela


Not all totally "minimal" but great starting places. Hope this helps!
JurgenW
Which artists are the real problem do you think?
Sleeparchive, Bookashade, Villalobos?

I cant say Ive heard many releases by them and certainly no mindblowing ones. For example the Shackleton mix by Villalobos that was huge...I dont get it...so boring...
I had a great time at Richie Hawtin's set at Dour 2008 and Im going to a M_nus night in Amsterdam soon, Im hoping for the best.

Anyway I would consider all the dubtechno minimal as well, but it already has a more fitting name ;-)
A lot of albums and mixes by those artists are huge, Scion, Andy Stott, Deepchord, 2562, Martyn are all massive.
If anyone has a recommendation of a mix or album that is as deep, layered and progressive as Scion's Arrange and Process Basic Channel Tracks Id like to hear.

Also, be careful what you say about M_nus, they have some terrifying supporters
Dirty_Electro1
That clip was hilarious. smile.gif
liquid23
Can`t get the point of that topic...

Listening to electronic music since the mid 80ies...started with ebm and chicagohouse
and spend lot of time at psychedelic trance parties up from 92.

I think that minimal music is the new psychedelic music...not all but most.

There are so fxxxxxg many interesting artists...mostly unknown to me...
creating so deep and mindbending tracks...ever listened to this music on DSL???

I agree with you in the fact that so called electrohouse is boring and well selling shit,
but there is so hardly intelligent and trippy minimal stuff out there...

And it`s trancy too...here in germany at last yes.gif


Try this...


http://www.confusi0n.sonstwo.eu/
matthewmoore3
personally i think minimal is a little more like playing with sound, making new noises, blending and morphing......its about specific sounds, and the quality/clarity of that sound and how each different sound enters and exits the tune...kind of an exploration

it can sound a bit dead and flat, but if you have good speakers and just are in it to listen to the noises in general it can be a bit hyptnotic

thats how i feel when i listen to it anyway,
liquid23
QUOTE (matthewmoore3 @ 15. Oct 2008, 16:02) *
personally i think minimal is a little more like playing with sound, making new noises, blending and morphing......its about specific sounds, and the quality/clarity of that sound and how each different sound enters and exits the tune...kind of an exploration

it can sound a bit dead and flat, but if you have good speakers and just are in it to listen to the noises in general it can be a bit hyptnotic

thats how i feel when i listen to it anyway,




Isn`t kind of explortation psychedelic somehow?
matthewmoore3
QUOTE (liquid23 @ 15. Oct 2008, 21:16) *
QUOTE (matthewmoore3 @ 15. Oct 2008, 16:02) *
personally i think minimal is a little more like playing with sound, making new noises, blending and morphing......its about specific sounds, and the quality/clarity of that sound and how each different sound enters and exits the tune...kind of an exploration

it can sound a bit dead and flat, but if you have good speakers and just are in it to listen to the noises in general it can be a bit hyptnotic

thats how i feel when i listen to it anyway,




Isn`t kind of explortation psychedelic somehow?


yeah i know what you mean, its out there...(i wasn't disagreeing with what you said by the way), but its an interesting one.

i guess psychedelic can define different things to different people. it depends on your own definition.... but i agree that the exploration is can be pretty trippy and mind warping...almost like bending and warping time, and yeah its defiantly designed to get in your head and take you to a different place.

I think the root of what is 'psychedelic' is what repeats and what is infinate. Psychedelic art for example is infinitely repeating patterns. Pschadelic drugs can make you feel infinity, also mediation. Its all about loops, patterns and repetition. And looking at it like this the majority of electronic music is psychedelic, in that it has a repeating rhythm and takes you away, which i think is why people get hooked on it.

But then some things get labeled psychedelic and some don't. Psy trance for example is a kind of psychedelic that is supposed to actively lift the mood to frenzied high with soaring melodies to get you into that psychedelic state where you lose yourself. Other electronic music does this obviously but trance is the most obvious.

So then something like minimal is psychedelic adventure, but more subjective, and controlled perhaps. It is less high energy and kind of mind bending at a personal level, rather than lifting you up to become one with the sweaty mass at once, it just slowly twists your mind, at perhaps overall is more effective, ultimately, to get lost in. But then at the same time, it can feel like a bit of a dark psychedelic.

I dont know.
ayuh
I think its definitely a backlash to the cheesyness of electro anthems and a desire to just rock a simple beat and master it to perfection.


It's like, when you are starving, a crumb seems like the best food in the world.

When a DJ keeps you on edge with a driving minimal beat and all the sudden you get a tiny chord change or a little fill or something drops out and you get a nice little flanger... oof, hits me hard smile.gif
isaschar
its all about groove
JurgenW
went to that m_nus party and it was chill music alright, but you could hear the quality go up (and excitement) when richie was playing the rest was just chugging along
knot
That minimal stuff also is a big problem to me.

Hawtin looks like a wanker of the worst kind to me.
His ''Concept'' album ? "The concept was that i decided to release two tracks a month, and then in the end of the year it makes a concept album''.
...WTF ?!
Then he started doing what the industry wanted him to do: loops. Loop-this, loop-that, this guy, and many others, are only concerned by loops.
Loops became a statement.
Early house music also was loop based, but then loops were called patterns. In opposition to loops, patterns may relate to any kind of music or graphic arts or whatever, whilst loops are nothing but a dumb marketing tool in order to fascinate the illiterate.
Last time i saw Hawtin, it was on a DVD accompanying a CD release, and he was mixing loops with a laptop in a mastering studio. Sure the place did look like Star Trek (like any mastering studio probably, but there's no doubt he picked the most ''bells, whistles and candy'' one), but what's the point ? I still wonder.
It could be just fine if all of this stuff was called ''entertainment'', but Hawtin seems to take himself pretty seriously instead, while i'm still waiting for us to bring some kind of a vision - maybe, someday, who knows...?
Instead, he keeps on outdoing on technology, industry and marketing... and he does it well !
I've taken a mobile and subscription this week. It's a Sony Ericsson coming with expectable useless features such as ''photos'' and ''music''. You can imagine my surprise when i saw in the last page of the ''music'' documentation a picture of the phone screen playing Plastikman ''Contained''. This guy looks like a puppet doing just what the industry wants him to do.
I'm not saying no true artist should work with the industry (unfortunately), but Hawtin is no Richard Devine.
To me the only good thing about Hawtin is his label : although it allows him to live off other ''artists''' back, i don't dislike people like Matthew Dear. Magda's ''Dancing machine'' mix album was pretty exciting also. It could have made a perfect minimal-loop-testament. Unfortunately, it's not the case.

Minimal could be a great thing, if only it was funky, or if it wasn't just a let's-pick-a-minimal-kick,-a-minimal-snare,-and-then-a-minimal-hi-hat-on-top-of-that-and-then-let's-play-it-thru-the-Sony-Oxford-Inflator-to-give-the-feeling-that-something's-happening caricature.

Early house was ultra minimal, like all they were using were a TR-727 and a TB-303.
Unfortunately, Richie Hawtin is no Armando Gallop, and Spastik is no Land of confusion.

Beware, minimal fans : that minimal thing is so much lying on the ''future'' and ''next'' terminology that it could hardly stand the test of time.

Minimal is the opposite of sustainable development (like ''electronic music'' has often been).
It's been a while i'm into ''electronic music'' and i've put to the trash countless records lately.

Minimal is so boring that i predict pretty soon ''unplugged'' to come back.
DaniellaC
Hey Guys, Don't worry... IM NINJA ninja.gif , heheh
I think Minimal is great, it isnt popular because the people is so drug, because crazy people likes anything. Minimal is cool, love its sound
JurgenW
early plastikman records were awesome...cant argue with that...also i think a lot of dub techno is v minimal only its already called dub techno so you cant call it minimal anymore :-) Then you also have classical minimal like terry riley, steve reich, philips glass who have also released great tracks and albums...
Gabster
I dont agree with u at all pyc....minimal is great...thats music, u can listen to a very nice melodie in a minimal track.....and not like hmm psychedelic music that in my opinion its only noise...annoying by the way...the only psy i think is good..its Psy-trance....all the other stuff sucks smile.gif


MINIMAAAAAL ROCKS smile.gif
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